tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC March 15, 2017 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT
administration. we have not heard yet from the white house. thank you to alan dershowitz for joining us. i'll be back tomorrow night 6:00 p.m. eastern. please join us. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. tapped out. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. donald trump's charge, the sick president obama wiretapped his phone during the campaign is making sick, itself. no wun is saying it's true, people who would know if there had been a wiretap on candidate trump, his own people are tip e tiptoeing through the tulips on this baby. so president trump's explosive charge appears to be heading back to the neverland where it came from. after top members of the house
intelligence committee today denied there was anything to the allegation. republican chairman devin nunes said he doesn't believe there was any wiretapping of trump tower and if taken litliterally the president's tweets were false. >> we don't have any evidence that took place. in fact, i don't believe just in the last week of time the people we've talked to, i don't think there was an actual tap of trump tower. now you have to decide, as i mentioned to you last week, are you going to take the tweets literally? if you are, then clearly the president was wrong. >> that's the republican leader of the house intelligence committee saying the president was wrong, there were no, were no wiretaps from obama to trump. now, it looks like president trump is trying to find a way out of this thing. here's what he told fox news today. >> wiretap covers a lot of different things. i think you're going to find some very interesting items coming to the forefront over the next two weeks. >> just remember, he said the
president, former president, president obama, was sick, because he wiretapped him. now he's saying something else we're talking about, anyway, separate tweets, when he first made this charge earlier this month. this comes after the department of justice failed to deliver evidence to back up the president's allegations by this week's deadline, extended to monday. jeff sessions said he, himself, did not give the president any information that would have led him to make such an explosive allegations. here's sessions. >> attorney general, did you have a chance to brief the president on investigations related to the campaigns or did you ever give him any reason to believe that he was wiretapped by the previous administration? >> look, my answer, no. >> boy, there's a lot of interesting words there. i don't know how -- mm, uh, no, no. meanwhile, the senate judiciary committee is delaying the confirmation of the president's nominee for deputy attorney general until the fbi clarifies the nature of its larger investigation into russia and
the trump campaign. a subcommittee hearing today, also today on the threat that russia poses to western democracies, senator lindsey graham and sheldon whitehouse explained why they urgently need to hear from the fbi. >> it's very reasonable to ask the fbi and department of justice, did you ever seek a warrant? was a warrant obtained from any court anywhere aut the trump campaign? if the answer is yes, that would be pretty stunning to me because they would have to have probable cause. the second thing, we met with the director, i think, on march the 8th and we said, senator whitehouse and myself, that we want to know if there's a criminal investigation of the trump campaign and ties to russia. >> it is now not only appropriate, but incumbent upon law enforcement to say we are looking at this. we intend to get to the bottom of this. and we have these resources dedicated to accomplishing that purpose. >> late today, director comey returned to capitol hill to
brief select lawmakers about the russian investigation. here's what senator dianne feinstein had to say following that briefing. >> this briefing was all on sensitive matters and highly classified and it's really not anything that we can answer any questions about. >> did mr. comey, did he confirm that there's an investigation ongoing into russia -- >> i'm not going to answer any questions on it. >> well tonight, president trump is holding a campaign-style rally in nashville. that's coming up later this hour. i'm joined by democratic senator sheldon whitehouse who was in today's subcommittee hearing. heather conley, director of the europe program at csis. and was a witness in that hearing today. glenn thrush, of course, white house correspondent for "the new york times." senator, i was impressed, i thought i was watching a classic real senate hearing today. you and lindsey graham i thought gave credit to the institution of the senate. grown-up behavior there. any evidence whatever have you
seen that president obama wiretapped trump as a candidate? any evidence? anybody have any evidence? >> zero, but the way you settle that question is by asking for the warrant applications that would have been filed in order to get permission for the wiretap. and it's a little hard to understand why the department of justice is not disclosing those. we've allowed them to redact them as they wish. it may be nothing but paper with lots of black lines, but -- >> yeah. >> -- it would provide the actual factual answer to that question because you don't go with the wiretap unless you've applied for it and that's something that gets done in writing. >> within our constitutional system, could the president of the united states, the chief executive, call up the fbi dictor and ask him or her, is there an investigation, has the been an investigation that would have led to a wiretap on trump? >> i think he probably could. if to the extent that he would have been the subject of that investigation. there are --
>> well, he is in this case. >> -- circumstances in which -- >> or would have been. >> there are circumstances in which a director should not answer that question to the president. >> let me ask you about the whole question of the campaign and the possible collusion with the russians. where's that stand? the trump possible collusion with the russians since they were trying to get him elected. >> we had asked director comey to let us know if the fbi was looking into that before we started today's hearings. because we can't be in a position where the executive branch is saying, steer clear of our criminal investigations, have to go forward without impediment by congressional investigations but at the same time, not confirm that there are, in fact, executive branch investigations taking place. so we need an answer to that question as chairman graham mentioned today, they've offered us a classified answer to that question in a week or so and i guess we should hear them out for the life of me, i can't understand why the answer to that question should be class y classified. >> hang on for a second,
senator. heather, you're the expert, right? would the russians have -- continue to help a candidate for president without any requited love, any kind of return statement? we like what you're going, you're going to be glad you did this. in other words, is it possible to imagine the russians doing all that they did to screw the chances of hillary clinton, all the wiretapping -- not the wiretapping, the hacking of t the -- all the e-mails to the dnc without expecting some sign from the victorious candidate in this case, that they were going to be rewarded for this? >> look, clearly russia influenced our election by disclosing e-mails. they were disrupting the election and they were discrediting our democracy. what they are seeking to do is -- what we're seeing in other elections in europe -- is that it's eroding confidence in our democracy. that's why this transparency -- >> they like trump as a k candidate. they did. >> well, they were anticipating a much more accommodative policy approach. they haven't gotten it yet because this controversy is now consuming what any policy
accommodation could -- >> knowing the russian manner, would they have proceeded unilaterally without any signal, any little wink from the trump ople? there's been a lot of meetings with the russians from the trumps. we know that. the question is, if they had t gotten a blank stare every time they met with a trump person, no indication they were appreciative, would that help trump? >> we need to get to the bottom of what the exchanges were. >> i know. >> that's why this investigation is so important. it's all about discrediting our democracy and our leaders an our institutions. they've accomplished that. >> glenn, this story is yours. it seems to me the whole wiretap charge which i started the program with is dead. no one, even the flakes at the white house, did you have to sit and watch. i said tiptoeing through the tulips. i remember tiny tip. tim. kellyanne has a way of pivoting away from a story, he knows things we don't know. that's not a confirmation. he knows things we don't know.
what do you make of trump's latest skating he's doing, well, there's a lot of things we could be talking about here. >> you need fertilizer to grow tulips. i think we're having a lot of that lately, right? i think the issue we're dealing with here, we got to remember why trump made these twit twee the first place, right after the jeff sessions -- with his recusal. this was intended as a divers n diversion, a huge mistake by the president. what's going on now is tectonic. seeing all of these senators, republican senators, even those who are not like lindsaey graha, a national animus to him, seeing devin nunes on the house side, he served on trump's transition essentially saying that the president said false stuff. look at the context of this. he's unveiling a budget tomorrow that's apparently dead on arrival because republicans are against it. the affordable care act is floundering on the hill. you have this crisis between the president and his own party being exacerbated by his tweets.
>> chairman nunes is a very strong republican, also said today the intelligence community has not been as cooperative as he would like. >> we are a little uncomfortable with the odni and whether or not they're going to let us have the proper computer technology that we need to go through the evidence that exists out at the cia out at langley and we are trying to work through that, but i can tell you that it has become a bit of a stumbling block for our investigators to actually be able to compile and comb through the information. >> dni the office of director of national intelligence. let me go back to senator sheldon whitehouse of rhode island. senator, let me ask you, what do you think of that charge that the agents have not been cooperative? we know the people who do it know they've done it. that would be the fbi or whatever. are they being cooperative with you in the senate? >> i'm actually sympathetic to
the odni folks on this. you'll recall that when we were doing the torture investigation and we went in and got access to the array of cia documents, they had to set up a special computer network for those documents. it's not an easy thing. that ended up in a lot of rouse. stuff leaked out of the cia into the senate intelligence committee computer networks that they didn't know they'd given to us. then a whole rash of bad accusations emerged from that. so for the odni to want to make sure they got their computer system right at the interface between themselves and the intelligence committees doesn't get my temperature up at this stage. >> what do you make of the fact that roger stone knew they were going to tap into or hack into -- hack into the democratic national committee e-mail of john podesta ahead of time? how's hthat work? how does a guy who has russian connections know the russian connection? let me go back to glenn. >> well, you know -- >> is that a lucky guess by
roger? >> my understanding of the chronology is stone didn't know about it before it was hacked but knew apparently about the existence or he has said, hinted he knew about the existence of the hack before it was sent over to wikileaks or around the time it was sent over to wikileaks. >> right. >> look, when you look at the prepro p preponderance of this stuff, with kislyak, it requires putting these dots together. roger stone, i think, and a let of the trump people put themselves in a disadvantage having an unorganized response to it. >> i learned that the russians always like to have one american for something. they always have to have -- whether it's dwayne andrius, he's our guy, we know him. they need to have contacts. it looks to me like these people, you know, paul manafort, a trump guy, roger stone, a trump guy, they seem to be their men. their people that they like to deal with. explain the culture of that and
why -- our russian relations are always with a few people. >> right. well, they -- >> like trump. >> the russians are extremely good at working and using networks. those networks come from established intelligence networks, financial networks. they start investing in relationships and sometimes those relationships blossom. sometimes those relationships don't. in europe, we're seeing where investments in far-right and far-left parties 20 years ago are now paying huge dividends as these political figures are now leaders. >> and the other thing, chris, is in the -- after the financial crisis, the russians and the chinese were the only people who were liquid whoad money to invest in real estate d casinos. >> florida real estate. >> yeah. >> florida real estate. they get paid double the money. thank you, senator sheldon whitehouse. we're out of time. thank you so much for joining us. glenn thrush, heather conley. more on the breaking news we've been reporting on msnbc, a federal judge in hawaii ordered a temporary restraining order against president trump's latest travel ban version.
nbc news justice correspondent pete williams is here with more. pete, is this a federal judge or appellate? are we still at the federal or district level? >> we're still at the federal district judge level. this is a judge in hawaii so washington state's judge today said i'm not going to extend the temporary restraining order i issued before because i think the new executive order is different enough, but a hawaii judge said he will issue a temporary restraining order, so that means that the new executive order, the one the president issued to revise his old one, will not take effect as it was supposed to tomorrow. judge derek watson says the 90-day pause on issuing visas from the six muslim countries amounts to religious discrimination. the judge says he can't turn a blind eye to the statements mr. trump made during the campaign about wanting to ban all muslim immigration. so the original executive order was already blocked. the u.s. will continue granting visas from the six countries
involved. no comment from the white house, chris, but the government will almost certainly appeal and go back to where the first one did, to the ninth circuit court of appeals in san francisco. >> well, wouldn't expect any good luck for the president on that second effort, the same arena. anyway, thank you, pete williams. you know your stuff. thanks for coming on with the latest. coming up, the doe apameepaf justice charges russian spies for a hack against yahoo!. we'll get the latest on that and what the russians are up with yahoo!. a lot of this stuff. and david k. johnston who obtained donald trump's 2005 tax return. he's coming here. and house speaker paul ryan is doing his best to link president trump and the white house to the republicans' embattled health care plan. if ryan's plan is going down, he seems to want to have some company from the president. and tonight, the president's holding a rally in nashville. he's expected to talk about health care. but let's see if he says anything about the other big stories of the day. like the fact that the top republican, as we said to you tonight, on the house intelligence committee says there's nothing to his wiretap
charge. or that tax return that rachel maddow scooped last night. this is "hardball," where the action is. ♪(music plays) ♪ heigh ho heigh ho ♪ ♪ heigh ho heigh ho it's off to work we go here's to all of you early risers, what's up man? go-getters, and should-be sleepers. from all of us at delta, because the ones who truly change the world, are the ones who can't wait to get out in it. i'm raph. my name is anne. i'm one of the real live attorneys you can talk to through legalzoom. don't let unanswered legal questions hold you up, because we're here, we're here, and we've got your back. legalzoom. legal help is here. legal help is here. the market.redict but through good times and bad... ...at t. rowe price... ...we've helped our investors stay confident for over 75 years.
call us or your advisor. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. russian federal security service officers working together with criminal hackers conspired to plan and carry out one of the largest cyber intrusions in u.s. history. >> there are no free passes for foreign state-sponsored criminal behavior. >> while congress investigates the extent of rush shesia's involvement in the 2016 election, the justice department indicted four people for their role in hacking yahoo!. that data breach affected at least 500 million accounts. it's the first time the united states has brought criminal charges against russian government officials. joining me now is msnbc counterterrorism analyst malcolm nance. i want to get to the bottom of
this. if you've got a yahoo! account, use it to move money in your bank, invest money, to deposit money, to take it out, to move it. is all that available hackers? can they take the money out of your bank? >> that depends on who they're targeting in the hack. >> yeah. >> if you ok athis, they took a half a billion accounts but it appeared that russian intelligence, themselves, had very specific targets, targeted individuals. what you want to do, this is like taking the entire trash dump so you can get one can, right? they come through and will go after everyone who may be in the database of cia officers or everyone who might be a government official. and they go through to see whether these accounts are secondary accounts which might lead them to other passwords. and that is really brute-force hacking of information. but the hackers, the criminal hackers who work with them, they were just stealing money and credit card information. >> what do you make of this news story today that nobody in the
house of representatives, the top person, nunes, he comes out and says i don't think there's anything to this trump claim that president obama wiretapped him. nothing to it. he just says it. >> well, he can say that. you know, as you said, there's a partisan side to this discussion then there's an operational side as to the mechanisms of how a president or how people are wiretapped within the united states government. there's absolutely no evidence at this point that president obama committed a crime or actually carried out a wiretap. it remains to be seen and it's really up to his committee and the house intelligence committee and the fbi to make a determination on what's the truth and what is ot. >> well said. are you in philly right now? >> i am. >> yes. the greatest backdrop. i don't know if it's real or mocked up. it's the greatest look down -- the benjamin franklin parkway toward city hall and has a wonderful londonesque look to
it. it's great. thank you, sir, for coming on. malcolm nance an as always. when we return, david k. johnston, the fantastic story, brought it to rachel maddow last night, got the trump tax returns of 2005. we'll have him here to talk about how he got it. this is "hardball," where the action is. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful to me. to take advantage of this offer on a volvo s90, visit your local dealer. here's to the wildcats this i gotta try .. bendy... spendy weekenders. whatever kind of weekender you are, there's a hilton for you. book your weekend break direct at hilton.com and join the weekenders.
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trying to figure out some way of building some kind of trust in a very quick moment. you have to love to work with people. our goal, without a doubt, is that all customers are satisfied before they leave. ♪ not releasing tax returns because as you knows, they're under audit. >> every president since the '70st has -- >> oh, gee, i never heard that. i never heard that. the only one who cares about my tax returns from tare the repor >> you don't think the american public is concerned? >> i don't think so. i won. >> that's not true, mr. trump. the american people want to see your tax returns. it's in every poll. welcome back to "hardball." president trump has all but ruled out releasing his tax returns. dismissing it as something he says only the press cares about. last night we got a glimpse at part of his tax return for the year 2005. it showed he paid a rate of 25%
on a substantial income. about $150 million. anyway, that was his income. paid about 38%. the document was obtained by david k. johnston of dcreport.org and shared with, of course, our own rachel maddow and 9:00 p.m. last night. what a scoop that was for her. today, president trump lashed out at what he called an illegal leak. >> i have no idea where they got it, but it's illegal and you're not supposed to hav ed td to ha. it's not supposed to be leaked. it's certainly not an embarrassing tax return at all, but it's an illegal thing. they've been doing it. they've done it before. and i think it's a disgrace. i just think it's so disgusting. >> anyway, in a statement last night, the white house confirmed the document's authenticity. isn't that something? the president also tweeted the leak -- about the leak this morning. "does anybody really believe that a reporter who nobody ever heard of went to his mailbox and found my tax returns? nbc news. fake news." that's trump.
what exactly was fake about news his white house confirmed? they confirmed it is true. i'm joined by david k. johnston. david, it's a funny thing i guess when a president accuses fake news of being true. and therefore, he was angry that it was leaked. i don't think fake news gets leaked. i think real news gets leaked. he was mad from both ends. he's mad at you. he says you're a nobody. of course, you're not a nobody. you're a guy who's been covering this guy for a long time, you've written bookabout him. let me ask you this. how did you get this stuff? this amazing two pages of his 2005 tax return? >> chris, all 50 years that i've been a journalist, i've publi published my home address and my telephone number. unlike all those reporters you can't reach, i've always made myself available and i've gotten lots of things as a result september sent to me. this came in the mail to my home in rochester, new york, and at the moment that i learned of it, i was standing on the beach taking a picture with my iphone of mar-a-lago because i was down in palm beach doing research for my next book which is about
donald trump. >> so no evidence -- no return address, no postmark -- where's the postmark on this one? >> westchester. >> was it postmarked? oh, locally. they brought it to you and postmarked you -- >> westchester. i'm in rochester. >> westchester, that's a big area to cover. >> yeah. >> what do you think about the -- what's a client copy? we're told it was marked client copy. stamped on it. >> well, the -- if you're doing a paper return, one goes to the government, there's a return that may go to the file or go to legal or fiduciary obligation. the client copy is the one that's given to the client. now, that copy could have been used for other purposes. regulatory filings. litigation. financial certifications. there are copies of parts of or all of donald trump's tax returns and yours and mine in various offices. >> and yet this is the first one to come to you. and you have no idea -- >> the first one to ever come out of any trump tax return.
>> you have -- when you say -- you must be searching your mind about this. who would have done you the favor. ey didn't send it to your newspaper, didn't send is to "the times didn't send it to fox. they must have thought you would be just the right person. did they say to give it to rachel? was that your call? >> no, that was my call. i first thought maybe donald had leaked it but his reaction in turning what could have been for him a terrific story about himself, he's managed to squander by his reaction to this. so clearly he didn't leak. when donald leaks things, he doesn't complain about them. he didn't complain about the pictures of his wife, the pornographic pictures posted in the "new york post" or three pages of state tax returns that got out last year. i suspect both of those came from him. so my guess is somebody who is aware of the very sophisticated knowledge that i have of tax and that i've particularly written
about the alternative minimum tax and negative incomes sent it to me because they knew i would know how to extract the absolute maximum information. >> the alternative tax forced him to pay 25%. i thought that made him look pretty good. >> yes. >> in fact, anybody pays $38 million in taxes is not sneaking away from paying taxes. i thought that's why -- you probably thought he may have leaked it, himself. >> yeah. chris, he didn't pay $38 million. that's one of the many falsehoods by the white house in this case. he paid $36.6 million. the other money is medicare tax. well, you know, let's stick to the accurate specific numbers. >> okay, fine. it's still more than -- a lot of us were of the opinion that he didn't pay taxes because the earlier tax return came out and suggested he had written off so much. >> right. >> some huge amount that he could have skated for years. >> that's ri in fact, this document suggests that at a minimum, at a minimum, donald trump's average income for the years 1995 through 2004 is $81.5 million because he
wrote down $815 million of his tax which congress has since shut down over those years. now, he may have made even more money if he had other tax losses. but -- >> that's pretty darn good. >> $81.5 million average for 10 years. >> i'm glad you brought that to rachel. there's one last question. what is the worst case of why he's hiding his taxes? he's taking some heat on this. not just the press, not just you birddogging him. the people want his tax returns. why is he hiding them? >> because it will -- we don't know about his associations. we have a president of the united states who's a hawk to a bank owned by the communist government of china who has been doing business with the russian oligarchs for decades and they're essentially a state-sponsored network of international criminals. we don't know who he's paying fees to. we don't know if he's cheating on his taxes. donald trump cheated workers, put small businesspeople out of business because he wouldn't pay
them, he swindled investors. he has a whole long history of cheating people. to think you wouldn't find some cheating in his tax returns, a pretty good guess we could find there's something in there. >> scale of 1 to 10, how bad of a guy is he? >> donald trump is manifestly unfit to be president of the united states. he's spent his entire life deeply involved with criminals and i think most importantly pledging his absolute loyalty to one of the biggest drug kingpins in america which is in my book "the making of donald trump," all of which comes from the public record, chris. there's no unnamed sourc. it's public documes. >> i read that as a 10. than you, david cay johnston. great reporting there. up next, president trump is about to take the stage in gnash v gnashvillgnash nashville. he doesn't like this news coming out about his tax returns. by the way, how is he going to replace obamacare? he says it's on life support. house speaker paul ryan is doing his best to remind everyone who
will listen the republican plan they're working through the house is trump's plan, too. that's going to be interesting. that's ahead. this is "hardball," where the action is. i work with people everywhere on sea, on land, and in the air. inspecting towers way up high avoiding turbulence in the sky. personalizing treatments with dna and recommending who should play. a dress that thinks, which crops to grow, tax prep to help keep payments low. you can find me on an oil rig, i answer questions small and big.
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ask your doctor about once-weekly trulicity. this is something we wrote with president trump. this is something we wrote the senate committees. we wrote this bill with our friends in the white house, in the senate. i talked to reince and bannon about this a number of times. we are all on the same page. absolutely. with the president. we're working hand in glove with
the white house. we meet with them constantly daily. we worked on this bill together. we jointly drafted this legislation, house, senate and white house, so we are working on this together. the president's aln on this. >> rinds me of people that say we like the same movies. anyway, welcome back to "hardball." that was the guy almost arguing for marriage with donald trump, it's paul ryan, of course, making the media rounds all day trying to sell the republican health care plan which he insists, you heard him there, many, many times, is a joint project with president trump. he wants trump's fingerprints all over this. anyway, meanwhile, we're awaiting remarks from president trump on health care from nashville where he's holding a campaign rally tonight. he's still running i guess. the president worked with republican leaders in congress to push through a repeal and replace plan for obamacare, calling the affordable care act a disaster and claiming it's in a death spiral. "washington post" columnist dana milbank is with me, writes the affordable care act has definitely deteriorated since the trump administration and new gop congress assumed power, no wonder, they sap sabotaged it.
loyalists to president trump says the new health care plan helmed by speaker paul ryan is jeopardizing his presidency and want him to ditch it. well, the "washington post's" robert costa and phil rutger report trump allies worry it would factture working and middle class voters, many older and sub ssisting on federal aid. joe kennedy is from mt massachusetts and dane ma milbank from the "washington post." dana, it's not just the trump people, trump, himself, are hoping obamacare dies somehow fiscally over the next couple years, they're doing what they can to make sure it does. >> nothing short of sabotage. think about it, right before the deadline for signups, they pauled the ads on tv and online. signed an executive order basically saying we're not going to forenforce that individual mandate, giving people no reason to sign up, constantly talk
about repeal, how this thing is going to be done which makes the insurers bail out of the market. that's why the premiums have gone up. they basically created this disaster and said, look, obamacare failed. >> congressman, i don't hear anybody saying how great this republican plan is. i know there's a mixed -- you as a -- i know how congresspeople operate. you've got constituents constantly telling you if something's wrong with obamacare. what kind of condition would you say obamacare is in right now? is it in critical condition? is it in normal condition? stable? how would you describe it if we leave it alone as it is right now? >> chris, look, if you look at massachusetts, we've actually done really well under the affordable care act. look, massachusetts as you know was the state that actually led the framework for this, but we have a 3.4% unemployment rate and a 2.8% uninsured rate. we were just named the best state in the country to live in. the idea that this is somehow a job killer or can't work is just false. what massachusetts also has, it has had for a while, is a bipartisan commitment to
actually make this law work, not to explain sabotage from day one and watch it fail and celebrating as it fails. look, there's undoubtedly challenges that the affordable care act has in some parts of the country. it's also undeniable if you have a commitment to make this law work, it can do an awful lot of good for an awful lot of people. >> let me ask you about the republican plan. do you think any democrats will vote for it? >> no. no, look, chris, it's not a plan, right? this is a tax cut wrapped in health care. it cuts $880 billion from medicaid and literally tries to give a $600 billion transfer of wealth from families working paycheck to paycheck to the weltthy in our country and call that health care reform. insult to the health care infrastructure we've built upon in our country and not the country we're about or the health care system that we're supposed to be about. >> you know, you know, dana, it reminds me of when you get cold at night and your wife or whatever pulls the blanket away from you and somebody's not going to have the blanket on
them. it seems that's the fight in the republican party right now between the hardnosed conservatives who don't want any kind of socialism and the people in the middle sort of center right who know that their constituents are afraid to lose coverage and can't seem to decide between getting rid of obamacare and basically keeping a lot of it. >> well, both the president and speaker are in something of a box now, no matter which direction they go. >> why is the president trying to shake loose from this guy, from this plan? >> i don't think president trump has any allegiance to paul ryan or to anybody else. >> why's paul ryan have allegiance to the president? >> that's an interesting question. >> let's cross the aisle. congressman kennedy, why is paul ryan so desperate to grab on to trump and have him claim partnership here? >> look, i think the speaker is trying to do everything he can to get his bill passed but the "washington post" reported moments ago he's conceded that they don't have the votes to pass this version of the bill which i think is a recognition that this bill hurts an awful lot of people across our country
from seniors to folks in rural communities, to obviously folks on medicaid and not just them, but it -- chris, this destroys what health care is supposed to be about in our country. health care at its heart is about how we care for each other in our time of need and the whole basis for this is that, yes, i care what happens to you and your family, because at some point, i'm going to need it, too, and i'm willing to invest in this to make sure you're doing well. at some point i'm going to have to draw on it as well. this big destroys that, takes those benefits, instead in investing in our country gives them back to the welttalthy, insurance companies, says to the rest of you, you you''re on you. that's not the country we are and health care system we deserve. >> thank you, joe kennedy. thank you, dana milbank. great column today. when we contue, we're going to wait for president trump to make his speech in nashville. 'ring hear what he has to say on this busy day in the news when he's not looking too good.
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welcome back to "hardball." we're waiting for president trump at a rally, he's giving a rally in nashville, a rally organized and paid for by his campaign. he's back on the trail again. we hopefully will hear -- say ho hopefully, hear a reaction t the big stories of the day from him includi the federal judge in hawaii who just blocked his ndravel ban, second effort at the travel ban. also the increasing doubts about his claim, i call them more than doubts, that president obama actually wiretapped trump tower to catch him. well, ever since he made that unsubstantiated charge, trump left his staff and congress holding the bag on the aftermath of that claim. sean spicer's evolving defense shows how difficult the task has become. >> does the president believe that former president barack obama committed a felony? >> i think the president's tweets speak for themselves. he put out a statement on sunday saying that we would have no further comment and were asking the house and senate
intelligence committees to look into this. the president used the word, wiretap, in quotes, to mean broadly surveillance and other activities. there is significant reporting about surveillance techniques that have existed throughout the 2016 election. i'll leave it to them to issue their report, but i think he feels very confident that we'll ultimately -- we'll vindicate him. >> how does he know how the president feels? he can't even tell us what he meant. anyway, given today's admission by house intelligence chairman devin nunes will the president finally paid the piper? joined by the roundtable. phil rucker, white house bureau chief for the "washington post." margaret for "bloomberg" and p.j. o'rourke, famous person, author of "how the hell did this happen: the election of to 2016" i'll let you start, p.j. you're great. let me ask you about this weird thing of the president saying something, gets up at dawn.
he doesn't like what's being said about whatever, he says i'll make some news. the president, sick president obama, ordered a wiretap on me. and now he's trying to say something like, well, there's a lot of definitions of that, no, he said a sick president did it to me. then all his people got the flak for him. >> first i thought it was an old magician trick, you know, just diversion. you know? don't look here. look over here. get the rabbit and put it in the hat. now i'm starting to think attributing anything as intelligence a plan donald trump is unnecessary, i'm overegging the pudding, you know? this guy is just -- he's a giant toddler and there's nothing going around inside his head except, you know, when do i get to suck my thumb next? >> margaret, how do you write news for a news organization like "bloomberg" which deals in numbers and facts, not a lot of
thrills, just facts? what is the fact here? there is no wiretapping evidence at all so he says today something, well, it means a lot of things then the other guy, spicer's got the toughest guy in the world. i zoechdon't mike what he's doi. this lobster thing he's doing. >> air quotes. >> i'm sorry, that isn't the way of talking -- you can't keep going like that. the fact is you have to say, did he say it or didn't he? >> he said what he said and it's not supported by facts. if there were facts, jim comey would have come forward by now. the justice department would have responded by now. devin nunes wouldn't have to draw the sort of lines while continuing to support this president. >> could you teach that to a 4-year-old? that sounded like normal intelligent thinking. i'm sorry. i'm not being condescending. you try this. if you talked to trump like this like she just did like an intelligent -- well, if there was anything there, it would have come out from the fbi director. nunes, head of house intelligence, would not be knocking it down. if there were anything there. logical deduction. what would trump do with a logical deduction like that?
>> this is the problem in trump's world and predates this white house, nobody will back down. nobody will acknowledge, okay, he overstated things, may have exaggerated something. he doesn't totally right but that's okay, here's what he meant to say. instead they just double down and trump -- >> kellyanne -- >> and has to search for the evidence. >> he knows things we don't know. the sort of mystery, jesus. he's not the god. he knows so many things. >> they have moved the goal post now and what trump is now saying is that there is surveillance information that he's going to come forrd with -- >> what does that mean? >> -- in the next two weeks. >> the president is sick, president obama was sick enough to wiretap me in trump tower. how wide can he go from that and claim he was telling the truth? i don't think he can get that wide from that. >> sean spicer should just give up and say, look, he's your drunk uncle. you know what i mean. he's your drunk uncle, he doesn't really mean it. >> he has to get a real job. anyway, here is ranking member of the house intelligence committee adam schiff on the white house press secretary's defense of president trump.
>> the reality is i don't think they have the foggiest idea what was behind the president's claim except maybe something he watched on tv. and i think the rest is designed to downplay, minimize or obvu srs obvusc obvuscaete the president said something that's not true. >> how are you doing at "the post"? >> we try to win every day. >> i want to know who's winning. top-rated reporters who cover all this who know roughly what anybody could know about trump. what's your theory about why he said something that can't be proven? >> i don't know why he said it. what we do know based on reporting at "the post," there are no fancts this has been goig on a week. he will not back down. sean spicer will not back down. this is going to be continue to be an issue they have to deal with until they resolve what the
truth is. >> i got another theory, suppose he just waits until one of those magic moments like the opening of a new hotel, when he dropped birtherism in the conversation. he wanted a lot of press to come and cover the opening of the hotel so he used it as a time to drop, there is no birtherism, he is a citizen like the rest of us, he was born there. just like that. >> there's going it be a news conference on friday with the german chancellor, going to be ample opportunities if he wants to reframe this. he certainly could do it quite easily. >> suppose he calls on breitbart or the "new york post." >> unclear whether the question -- >> not sure he's going to allow a real news organization, he picks his -- >> he's going to say something more ridiculous. by next week we will have forgotten about this completely. he will say something -- >> how the hell did this happen? >> if you find out, will you tell me? >> it's in here, p.j. these are good books. by the way, small book. only 25 bucks. good deal. the roundtable is sticking with us. this is "hardball," where the action.
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you seem knowledgeable, professional. i'm actually a deejay. -[ laughing ] no way! -that really is you? if they're not a cfp pro, you just don't know. cfp. work with the highest standard. afoot and light-hearted i take to the open road. healthy, free, the world before me, the long brown path before me leading wherever i choose. the east and the west are mine. the north and the south are mine. all seems beautiful me. to take advantage of this offer on a volvo s90, visit your local dealer. we're back with the "hardball" round table. phil, tell me something i don't know. >> so the health care bill seems to be in trouble on the hill -- >> the republican one coming out of the house? >> and i talked to judd gregg, the former senator from new
hampshire, he was right in the middle of the obamacare fight eight years ago and i said what's wrong here? he said, look, these people who are opposed to it don't know how to govern. they've always been in a minority, the folks in the white house have never governed before and they're not used to governing and the question he had was whether they even want to govern. >> that's so good. i love that. protest politics is much more fun than governing politics. >> it sure is. >> something unexpected. look for those dutch elections to have an impact on the meeting on friday. >> but the real nationalist is not doing well, i hear. >> yes, but even if the election results end up being more of the status quo, what happened with turkey over the weekend trying to interfere and the backlash reverberating around europe and what will be interesting to see is donald trump said repeatedly he does not believe in meddling in other country's business. what erdogan has been doing is giving the chills to leaders like angela america. >> -- angela america. >> she's going to get reelected? >> there's hope for the trump administration, something you
didn't know. i've got hope for the trump administration, they'll build hotels and resorts and casinos in russia, in china, in raqqah, in gaza and they will all collapse in bankruptcy and it's going to leave russia trying to pass off eastern ukraine on bond holders and trying to sell the spratly islands distressed property. >> trump was very good today with -- i'm not usually that supportive of him -- if he had just give than speech he gave today with the auto workers he would have looked very good because he talks to those guys and women better than most politician politicians. he knows how to talk to regular working people about saving those jobs. democrats have not been good at that. they have not been confident. anyway, "hardbl" round table. president trump 25 minutes late. no surprise there in nashville, but they're waiting for him. you're watching "hardball." .
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a lot of broken hearts out there. trump's late for his rally in nashville. i know viewers aren't waiting for him but we are going to cover it because it is the news. now we don't have to. i want to push this book "how the hell did this happen." short answer, how did we get trump? >> people wanted to shake things up so bad -- >> so bad. they did that. >> they did it really bad. >> worst-case scenario.
>> they shook stuff up. >> how the hell did this happen. phillip rucker, thank you, margaret, p.j. o'rourke, "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, we were following breaking news on several stories at this very moment. we are just hours before president trump's -- just hours before president trump's revised travel ban was set to take effect, a federal judge in hawaii jt about an hour ago has blocked it. the ruling stating it amounts to religious discrimination or at least that they have a good chance of succeeding on the merits on that score. we'll have more on that ahead. first, president trump is in campaign mode, holding a rally in nashville, tennessee, where the house says he will at least touch on the topic that is now dominating capitol hill and indeed the country. the gop's sputtering attempts to repeal and replace obamacare. th